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在杂音中成长的产品人

所有产品的思路,首先是“用户价值”,“用户价值” = 用户 + 价值。要明确用户价值,首先要明确“要面对什么样的用户”,然后才能明确“给他们提供什么样的价值”。没有对“用户”的辨别能力,不明确你的用户是谁,就无法分析用户的实际需求,无法定义“给用户提供什么样的价值”。

按照产品人员接触的远近把用户分类,顺序如下:“同事用户” 》 “同行用户” 》 “极端(感受极差或极好)用户” 》 “活跃用户” 》“沉默用户”。往往,沉默的是绝大多数,但产品人员对他们的感触却最小。

拿用户讲出来“声音”来说。“同事用户”、“同行用户”、“极端用户”、“活跃用户”的确很重要,但由于这些人都是特殊用户,他们反馈出来的声音必须进行充分的“清洗”后才能采纳。产品人员更应该做的是去找到更多“沉默用户”的声音,因为他们才是你的绝大多数。

举几个例子:

(在举例之前我先说一个前提观点,如果你不认可,请不要继续往下看: “ 不追求利润的企业是不道德的,任何企业都需要去追逐可以让自己活下去的,可以让股东更满意的利润。只要是在保证“用户价值”的基础之上,一切都无可厚非。” )

1、Apple

很多人骂Apple高傲,不少开发者说苹果太封闭了,太不开放。

Apple在“App Store 审核方针”这么写:
# App Store 里已有超过 25 万个应用。我们不需要更多演示放屁声音的软件了。如果你的软件没什么用,或者不能提供一些最新的乐趣,它可能不会被通过。
# 我们会拒绝任何我们认为已经越界的内容或行为。那么你会问,界线在哪儿?嗯,最高法院的法官曾经说过「当我看见的时候,我就会知道」(I’ll know it when I see it.) 。并且我们还认为,当你越过界线的时候其实你自己也知道。
#如果你的软件是只花几天时间草草拼凑的作品,或者你开发这个软件只是为了实验,让你在同学面前显得与众不同,那么,请你也做好被拒绝的准备。我们有很多认真的开发者和开发商,他们不希望自己的高质量应用被很多业余作品环绕。

威武到一塌糊涂! 满纸都明晃晃的写着:不符合我用户价值的东西,滚蛋!我们不会对你客气的。

在中国,这样平台会不会被开放者们天天游行?

2、百度

作为搜索引擎企业,百度一直在“公正”和“商业”之间进行博弈。但无论如何,一切都建立在“让用户找到自己想要的东西”至上,因为这是百度最大的“用户价值”。

这几年,百度一直被很多很多的“同行用户”骂做“站内搜索”,说百度搞垄断,拦截流量。比如你搜索“感冒发烧”会发现前边四条结果分别来自百度贴吧、百度知道、百度百科、百度知道。现如今,百度搞“开放平台”,又被骂做是“制造流量黑洞”。

站内搜索怎么了? 只要给的东西是用户想要的,SO TM WHAT ? 流量黑洞怎么了?只要给用户提供了他们更需要的结果,SO TM WHAT? 只要没有损害用户的价值,让该骂的人骂去吧。

关于百度:不管他对站长怎么样,至少人家在很多事情上并不是以牺牲用户价值为前提,而是为了更好的“让用户找到自己想要的东西”。比联合站长去盘剥用户,要更合适些。

关于流量黑洞:互联网发展到如今这个状态,如果一个站长还是必须要靠流量而活着,不去关注产品和内容本身,最终因为没人施舍给他流量,或者不能再骗到流量而饿死,活该!

关于马太效应:互联网作为一个创新的快速变化的领域,他没有游戏规则,最重要的特征就是“颠覆”。后者可以靠改变游戏规则来颠覆前者,不管前者有多么庞大。Google超越了Yahoo!靠的是改变游戏规则,颠覆;Facebook可以挑战Google靠的是改变游戏规则,颠覆;Twitter可以站出来,靠的是改变游戏玩法,颠覆。 这是一个压根就不需要“垄断法”的领域,也是“马太效应”天生的坟墓。 在互联网这个领域,真的不应该担心什么“马太效应”,把这份担心拿去关注“创新”一定会更有益处。

3、某商场

柜台,免费;商场门口有个问答中心(搜索),根据顾客的提出需求给他建议该去的店铺,免费;商场里还有很多各式各样拉客的广告位,收费。 实质是一个“工具平台+营销平台”。

未曾想,免费用着摊位的人天天骂着:“你们以前广告位拉来一个人收一钱银子,去年拉一个人一钱半,现在太贵了,二钱”。天啦,也不好好看看,别的地方现在拉一个人一两银子呢(线下广告更贵)。又没逼你非得找我拉人,商场是开放的,柜台是免费的,有本事你自己去外面拉人啊,你拉来人商场还贴钱给你呢。

活像一堆天天等着救济游手好闲的氓流,突然一天,施主给少了,氓流们不愿意了,骂施舍的人没良心,没道德。实在可笑,实在剽悍。

更可笑的是:原来商场门口那个免费问答中心给顾客的建议原则是:谁家生意做的多信誉好,给谁引导去的人越多。 但顾客一直说生活做的多不一定好,人品(服务)更重要。于是商场变了一下问答中心的建议原则,变成谁的人品(服务)好,多给谁引导点。

嘿,这么一变,突然冒出来一小綽人不愿意了,高喊“你们损害了我的利益,你们不让我活了,就知道赚钱”,纠结起来要去砸了商场,还有一堆不知来路的人后面摇旗呐喊着,好不热闹。天啦,你们这不是等于承认自己人品不行吗。担心自己的人品比不过别人?~

.

这就是我们的互联网,产品人的耳朵里被“同事用户”、“同行用户”、“极端用户”的杂音充斥着。一不留神你就得为0.1%的麻烦用户,而花掉99.9%的时间,最后失去了99.9%的用户。 作为一个产品人,要坚守用户价值,除了不为一些荒谬的KPI而动,还得不为杂音而扰。

我一直坚信,“用户声音”要听,但更重要的是看。产品人员需要有自己的工具,可以通过数据和现象看到“客户的声音”。因为哪些占了99.9%份额的“沉默用户”虽然从来不说自己的意见,但他们一直在做,你可以清清楚楚的看到。把更多精力花在他们身上更值得。

任重而道远啊。

分类:UCD ,10/09/29 6:55 下午 | 191,614 次浏览 |

网友评论(221)

  1. 犀利,直白,透彻

  2. 产品搜索规则的更改,注定是一部分人高兴,一部分人不高兴;但其实这都不重要,重要的是用户高兴

  3. 我的观点一直在变更,但是目前,我是很支持鸦总的这观点的。希望我不要再成为那个0.1%。

  4. 3、某商场

    这个没猜错的话,说的应该是淘宝。

  5. 严重同意鸦关于用户价值的评述,我比较关注通过什么工具,怎么通过数据和现象看到“客户的声音”。

  6. 在”用户声音”中成长的产品人又有几个?

  7. 很赞同的啦。
    只不过,很多时候连用户价值都忘了,于是做着收集并满足同事、同行、极端用户的事。
    唉,我忧的是这个。

  8. 产品人员有时候确实需要一定程度的闭门

  9. 百度一直在“公正”和“政 府”之间进行博弈

  10. 很真实!
    做产品很多时候的需求在PK和部门的协调中被丢失,很容易边缘化!

  11. “一不留神你就得为0.1%的麻烦用户,而花掉99.9%的时间,最后失去了99.9%的用户。”
    这句话说得好,不过我在想。如何定义这个0.1%的“麻烦”用户是一个比较麻烦的问题。或者换一种说法就是,什么是“麻烦”?为什么有这样的“麻烦”?我们是如何得知有这“0.1%”的麻烦用户存在的?这样的“麻烦”是用户造成的,还是我们造成的?事实上,一切因我而起的问题,想解决的时候也应该由我出发。当然,这种由我出发的角度必须是良性的,否则势必是视为为自身开脱。
    关键性的问题不是时间,而是如何定义这个量。对于“麻烦”,我更喜欢比较“肤浅”的理解为用户的一种诉求,一种内心声音的急切表达。我不说99.9%的用户都有这种诉求,但有这种诉求的用户肯定不只0.1%,关键还是定量的问题。
    事实上我不赞成楼主将Apple和百度放在本文的例子里边,因为一个是完整的,一个是畸形的。

  12. 最近也被如何识别真用户的问题困扰,数据很难提供支持,只能靠产品人员的积累,判断,还要想尽一切手段去说服,任重道远啊

  13. […] 在杂音中成长的产品人:拿用户讲出来“声音”来说。“同事用户”、“同行用户”、“极端用户”、“活跃用户”的确很重要,但由于这些人都是特殊用户,他们反馈出来的声音必须进行充分的“清洗”后才能采纳。产品人员更应该做的是去找到更多“沉默用户”的声音,因为他们才是你的绝大多数。 […]

  14. 哎,不怕“同行用户”和“极端用户”,这作为产品人来说能守得住也明白自己该去面对谁。如今作为一个公司最怕“同事用户”,大家都“热心”得很,不理睬被骂、理睬了就变成自娱自乐做产品了。

  15. amizhang提到的【大家都“热心”得很】,和我遇到的好像啊。
    似乎不理睬就成了不合作了。

  16. 好文,收藏至20ju.com

  17. @小旺
    如何定义0.1%.综合产品人的经验和自身的产品来定义.假如你是博客服务提供商.你对你的产品有一个定位,该产品提供什么样的服务,如果这个清晰了,那么这0.1%可能就是.”我希望你们提供搜索服务,会更方便我使用”.你是视频平台.目的是提供视频存放点以及播放分享服务.”我希望在你们平台一边玩游戏一边看视频”.

    举个例子.某策划通过用户的反馈提出需求.
    “我希望在这一个页面把所有东西搞定,这样用户就不用东找西找了(潜在的用户需求,出发点是好的).这里加个按钮,那里加个按钮,对,这再加个提示.这搞个弹出.给XX产品提供个入口.这个是客户的广告得加上…等等等等”

    我觉得大多数折腾来折腾去的,本身是对产品定位和产品发展方向的不确定.
    符合逻辑的产品流程才是及格的产品.一味的满足这些需求会让你的产品人不人鬼不鬼.
    换句话说,用户不仅需要你提供良好的服务,还需要你的引导和培养.反馈也好,脑暴也罢,根据自身情况从这里边找出自己的平衡点应该不是难事.如果不行,我倒觉得真不适合做产品.

    有门,有窗户,你就觉得从窗户出去更高效.因为用户说,窗户离我近,我翻的还快.你把这一圈墙都给我弄成窗户的吧.门呢,流程呢,逻辑呢,都在哪.

    国内大多产品做的烂,一点不怪用户

  18. 淘宝小卖家…淡定的飘过…鸦总有理…淘宝有理…

  19. 产品人员需要有自己的工具,可以通过数据和现象看到“客户的声音”
    ——————————————————————-
    请问白鸦大哥,这些工具具体是哪些呢,谢谢

  20. @Rock,顶!

  21. 留下个脚印

  22. 大部分只做不说的用户需求是最难把握,特别是用户深层次的需求。
    apple操作模式创新,平台模式创新,是在无数次分析、演算出来的,而不是乔布斯一拍脑袋就出来的。中国式用户需求调研要么找几个人调查一下,要么就是老板用户了。
    路漫漫其修远兮~

  23. 我也对这些工具比较感兴趣。
    我更相信,这么想的产品人不是少数,只是都是“沉默的大多数”。

  24. 说的太多,太隐晦,没必要,产品就是要做自己的产品,我自己会找到用户!

  25. @Rock,我赞成你的观点,不过如果我是博客服务提供商,我不会把
    【“我希望你们提供搜索服务,会更方便我使用”.你是视频平台.目的是提供视频存放点以及播放分享服务.”我希望在你们平台一边玩游戏一边看视频”.】当成0.1%,因为真正0.1%的用户可能是这样的:“我发帖不成功咋回事呀(你有大堆敏感词怪谁?)”,“图片转载不成功怎么办(未经原作者同意)”,“头像更改成功,但还是老图片(系统问题)”,“上传照片不成功。。(系统问题)”,这样的0.1%,随便去找找看,结果集绝对不在少数,多收集成千上万然后抓堆分析,不能看出自己的问题?
    不过这些大概不是博主文中谈及的“杂音”,事实上我觉得把“杂音”理解为“诉求”可能更为合适,“诉”指的是产品没有满足用户期望值,这时候用户可能会通过多种途径表达自己的看法、甚至是批评指责。“求”指的就是Rock说的第一段了,“求”的这部分一定不是极端用户,也不止0.1%,如何定量?如何剥离?确实是一门技术。可能就需要楼主所说的工具了,也可能是Rock谈及的产品人的经验和自身的产品。
    讨论已经偏离了主题,在这里评论的也绝对不会是任何一款互联网产品那沉默的“99.9%”。

  26. 第一次听说“产品人” 呵呵

  27. @azero 同样听到过有同事“热心”提建议。这种建议杀伤力太大了。
    沉默用户的声音最难挖掘,但力量最大。不过也可掘地三尺找很多渠道,就看产品人重视不重视了。

  28. 我们的同胞们被“马太”怕了。

  29. 有定力把功能做到极简不怕挨骂的人是极少的,如果你同事过来说一声这么这个功能都没有,你就开始怀疑自己的产品功能了。

  30. 企业都是在骂声中成长滴,能做到游戏规则制定者你才有上面说话滴底气。
    TB显然要成为那个,继企鹅、摆渡之后,另外一行业游戏规则滴制定者

  31. 鄙视百度的引导 鄙视百度的引导 鄙视百度的引导

  32. 分析得好

  33. 做一个产品人也不错,虽然我是网络营销人,不过我们的目的都是统一的:为用户提供有价值的产品或者服务。

  34. […] 【来源】白鸦 – 在杂音中成长的产品人 【整理】horan@数据力量 – 产品成长于杂音中 【相关】IT产品经理随想 […]

  35. 说这么多举这么多例子有什么用?发现这些人只会讲这些概念性的东西,能讲点实在的,比如如何观察沉默用户的需求?

  36. 用户声音很重要,一直在努力中………………

  37. 用户声音往往关系着商业价值,不得不重视!!

  38. 送给PM三句话,以备所需:

    1.现在很忙,月底再说好吗。
    2.这个事情,你(您:这个字你可以用在老大身上)先找一下市场部;
    3.做不了。

    说完以上三句话以后,产品经理做好卷铺盖走人的准备。

  39. 赞同楼主的思路,不过要做好分利工作,给那些真正能提供优质内容的网站分利。

  40. 关键问题在于,产品主责人的判断和决断力。换言之,脊梁骨是否坚定啦……首先他要有“远见卓识”可以看到产品对用户的真正价值,换言之,对产品后续的需求和推广有比较明晰的IDEA。其次,还得有判断力,知道哪些属于0.1%,那些不属于……更重要的是可以遴选极少的可以影响产品改进方向的有价值的意见,也许现在看起来的是荒谬的,但是更加promising。第三,还得坚定自己的看法,固执或是执着都无所谓的,客户“爹妈”和老板“娘舅”之间的关系要处理得当啊……第四,做到这些,事必躬亲会很辛苦,所以还要缔造团队给自己减轻压力……
    其实核心一点,就是在不影响“爹妈”体验的情况下满足娘舅的需求。百度做的其实有问题啦……例如我很少用百度,原因很简单,每次搜索出来的东西都不是我最需要的,但是也很难说不是我需要的,总之都会有一点差距。这就是牺牲了爹妈满足娘舅。goole呢,依然会搜索出百度知道中有用的东西,每次搜索出来的还是我想要的,不同的搜索分类区分也很明确,例如我要学术的东西直接去学术搜索这个产品,感觉很好……

  41. 不做产品,只听音乐。

  42. 关键问题在于,产品主责人的判断和决断力.
    执行力!

  43. 为什么白鸦在这篇文章里面说到百度框计算的时候会认为“只要没有损害用户的价值,让该骂的人骂去吧”,但是在另外一篇文章里面却大骂360呢?360同样没有损害用户的价值啊?为什么360就被骂成一条狗了呢?博主的对这类时间的价值观标准是什么?!

  44. […] 最后,我最近有2个领悟:其一,如果在新产品上线或者产品改版时候有用户持续的(注意频率)唱衰之并扬言要离开,那这些用户是最不会离开的,具体请 参见豆瓣;其二,如果一个新产品上线或者产品改版后没有人骂,那你这产品着实太烂了或者着实太籍籍无名了。不过,对于产品人员而言,学会挨骂是个必须过关 的技能!具体参见白鸦的“在杂音中成长的产品人”。 […]

  45. 看国产动作电影新龙门客栈

  46. 非常赞同白鸦的观点,但如何才能获得更多沉默用户的声音,即然选择了沉默该如何发声?请教白鸦

  47. 好文章!

  48. 好文章!

  49. 这是个斗争的世界,没有博弈的资本就只能任人宰割.
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  50. 作为一个产品人,要坚守用户价值,除了不为一些荒谬的KPI而动,还得不为杂音而扰。

  51. 站内搜索怎么了? 只要给的东西是用户想要的,SO TM WHAT ? 流量黑洞怎么了?只要给用户提供了他们更需要的结果,SO TM WHAT? 只要没有损害用户的价值,让该骂的人骂去吧。

    问题是它给的经常不是我想要的

  52. 中国人是聪明的,不管规则如何变,该刷信誉,刷商品依旧盛行,改了规则还催生了另外一些人的生存。

  53. 不同意,你说百度,这个,它公正么?
    我和我的朋友去了一家医院,这里可以说公认是无法治愈这种病的;很多人都是第一次来,觉得无效都走了;我们就在百度贴出这条消息,希望那些没有很多钱,有很渴望治好病的人不要浪费时间;而百度却把这贴删了;只要搜索这病,百度里前几名就有这家医院。
    它公正么?怎么算公正?

  54. 白鸦,如果你懂“劣币驱除良币”的原理,你就会对百度的搜索广告和淘宝的广告位有了更深入的认识

  55. 李彦宏就是一团狗屎。丢中国人的脸。别忘了,百度也是一个外企。

  56. 你说站内搜索怎么了,这种明知故问的感觉只能满足自己内心的答案。看看贴吧知道,好处不可否认,但一堆乱七八糟的答案也排在最前面了,那可能是你认为大家需要的,但至少很多不是我需要的

  57. 43楼,因为这次的广州书友会有腾讯的小牛来啊,你总不能隔膜肘往外拐吧,中国人不都是这样需要客套一下,你就看下就行了。不过小白说的也挺对的,360确实这一招很让腾讯生气,不过腾讯也干过不少事情,只要你稍微注意下就知道。只不过不管是周公放火还是百姓点灯只是某一部分人看着不爽,但还是有人会很爽的,所以有人批评有人闭嘴,都正常。互联网和其他事情没什么区别,你不搞我,我不能我搞你了呀

  58. 很不好意思,我来这里不是讨论关于行业的话题
    我来这里,首先是“开骂”的。
    主题是关于alipay手机业务的。
    今天我手机收了条短信:支付宝提醒你,好久没登陆了,你可以用支付宝来支付水电费之类等等(不是原话,但就这个意思)
    OK,我是开了支付宝的手机了,我也是搞互联网的,我也知道所谓的许可性email营销。
    但他奶奶的白鸦你就不知道什么叫许可性?许可性email营销,还有个不喜欢可以退订/不打扰呢。
    你这支付宝做大了,就发这种垃圾短信,我还得花10秒去删?
    病毒性营销/口碑营销不是这么做的啊!
    你要真想做好?退订呢?!!
    你做用户体验的,还让我在这里给你说这个?你好意思?

    知道结果么?
    我登了支付宝,找了手机相关设置,压根就没有。——导致我直接解绑了所有手机的操作应用!
    我不用手机搞支付宝行不?
    这个你想不到吧?

    至于为什么发在这里,你可以看看这篇文章的标题。

  59. @索林那瑞 不好意思,我也是昨天才知道这个短信的。 这个短信确实做的有问题,通知的时候末经用户设置,且不可取消。 已经跟相关产品设计师反馈了,相信他们会很快改进。

    给你带来骚扰,非常抱歉!

  60. OK,作为alipay的普通用户,我接受白鸦大大的道歉。
    那作为行业从业人员之一
    继续探讨一下我个人认为这个问题出现的一个折射点——alipay的产品战略设定有偏差。
    alipay的产品战略核心竞争力在于——1、信用桥梁,2、领先的支付方式。2个关键点,信用为先,桥梁为后。
    现在一支全支的这种战略想法,无可厚非。
    但有1点——alipay没有事实垄断,在中国IM的事实垄断是QQ,在支付方面呢?是各大银行。而非alipay。在这点上,alipay绝对无法赶超银行。我很肯定这点,因为没有alipay在我家附近的银行。

    从paypal的战略发展思路来看,是放在了第2点,领先的支付方式来渗透每个人的生活中,使得生活支付渠道带来更加便捷,具体请自行搜索paypal的广告。因为国外的1、安全;2、信用支付都很健全了。

    回眼到国内,我不谈大的道理,我愿意网上支付电话费,但通常我用网银来支付。因为网银支付和alipay支付没有不同,但我要用alipay支付电话费,还需要从网银转款。我在转款之前,就可以网银支付电话,干嘛还要花时间用alipay去支付?

    alipay犯了国内最大的毛病,爱做大做全,我建议不要做加法,要做减法。

  61. @索林那瑞 其实我们没有什么宏大的战略,只不过是叭叭的看着我们的典型用户 为他们提供我们可以提供的价值。 至于什么竞争,真的没有精力考虑太多。 几个亿的注册用户,服务好他们相信支付宝就有未来了,服务不好,怎样布局都不会有未来。

    完全赞同你说的,不要做加法,要做减法。谢谢

  62. 关于马太效应:互联网作为一个创新的快速变化的领域,他没有游戏规则,最重要的特征就是“颠覆”。后者可以靠改变游戏规则来颠覆前者,不管前者有多么庞大。Google超越了Yahoo!靠的是改变游戏规则,颠覆;Facebook可以挑战Google靠的是改变游戏规则,颠覆;Twitter可以站出来,靠的是改变游戏玩法,颠覆。 这是一个压根就不需要“垄断法”的领域,也是“马太效应”天生的坟墓。 在互联网这个领域,真的不应该担心什么“马太效应”,把这份担心拿去关注“创新”一定会更有益处。

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  63. 我来学习了。

  64. 这就是我们的互联网,产品人的耳朵里被“同事用户”、“同行用户”、“极端用户”的杂音充斥着。一不留神你就得为0.1%的麻烦用户,而花掉99.9%的时间,最后失去了99.9%的用户。 作为一个产品人,要坚守用户价值,除了不为一些荒谬的KPI而动,还得不为杂音而扰。

    ————————
    这个这个,太有感触了。现实就是这样的。所以,花时间和精力、同时运用高超的研究技术去关注99%的用户,是一件多么重要的事。大家一定要在这方面共勉。

  65. 来学习了。 百度也是一个外企 ?

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