在杂音中成长的产品人
所有产品的思路，首先是“用户价值”，“用户价值” = 用户 + 价值。要明确用户价值，首先要明确“要面对什么样的用户”，然后才能明确“给他们提供什么样的价值”。没有对“用户”的辨别能力，不明确你的用户是谁，就无法分析用户的实际需求，无法定义“给用户提供什么样的价值”。
按照产品人员接触的远近把用户分类，顺序如下：“同事用户” 》 “同行用户” 》 “极端(感受极差或极好)用户” 》 “活跃用户” 》“沉默用户”。往往，沉默的是绝大多数，但产品人员对他们的感触却最小。
拿用户讲出来“声音”来说。“同事用户”、“同行用户”、“极端用户”、“活跃用户”的确很重要，但由于这些人都是特殊用户，他们反馈出来的声音必须进行充分的“清洗”后才能采纳。产品人员更应该做的是去找到更多“沉默用户”的声音，因为他们才是你的绝大多数。
举几个例子：
（在举例之前我先说一个前提观点，如果你不认可，请不要继续往下看： “ 不追求利润的企业是不道德的，任何企业都需要去追逐可以让自己活下去的，可以让股东更满意的利润。只要是在保证“用户价值”的基础之上，一切都无可厚非。” ）
1、Apple
很多人骂Apple高傲，不少开发者说苹果太封闭了，太不开放。
Apple在“App Store 审核方针”这么写：
# App Store 里已有超过 25 万个应用。我们不需要更多演示放屁声音的软件了。如果你的软件没什么用，或者不能提供一些最新的乐趣，它可能不会被通过。
# 我们会拒绝任何我们认为已经越界的内容或行为。那么你会问，界线在哪儿？嗯，最高法院的法官曾经说过「当我看见的时候，我就会知道」(I’ll know it when I see it.) 。并且我们还认为，当你越过界线的时候其实你自己也知道。
#如果你的软件是只花几天时间草草拼凑的作品，或者你开发这个软件只是为了实验，让你在同学面前显得与众不同，那么，请你也做好被拒绝的准备。我们有很多认真的开发者和开发商，他们不希望自己的高质量应用被很多业余作品环绕。
威武到一塌糊涂！ 满纸都明晃晃的写着：不符合我用户价值的东西，滚蛋！我们不会对你客气的。
在中国，这样平台会不会被开放者们天天游行？
2、百度
作为搜索引擎企业，百度一直在“公正”和“商业”之间进行博弈。但无论如何，一切都建立在“让用户找到自己想要的东西”至上，因为这是百度最大的“用户价值”。
这几年，百度一直被很多很多的“同行用户”骂做“站内搜索”，说百度搞垄断，拦截流量。比如你搜索“感冒发烧”会发现前边四条结果分别来自百度贴吧、百度知道、百度百科、百度知道。现如今，百度搞“开放平台”，又被骂做是“制造流量黑洞”。
站内搜索怎么了？ 只要给的东西是用户想要的，SO TM WHAT ? 流量黑洞怎么了？只要给用户提供了他们更需要的结果，SO TM WHAT? 只要没有损害用户的价值，让该骂的人骂去吧。
关于百度：不管他对站长怎么样，至少人家在很多事情上并不是以牺牲用户价值为前提，而是为了更好的“让用户找到自己想要的东西”。比联合站长去盘剥用户，要更合适些。
关于流量黑洞：互联网发展到如今这个状态，如果一个站长还是必须要靠流量而活着，不去关注产品和内容本身，最终因为没人施舍给他流量，或者不能再骗到流量而饿死，活该！
关于马太效应：互联网作为一个创新的快速变化的领域，他没有游戏规则，最重要的特征就是“颠覆”。后者可以靠改变游戏规则来颠覆前者，不管前者有多么庞大。Google超越了Yahoo！靠的是改变游戏规则，颠覆；Facebook可以挑战Google靠的是改变游戏规则，颠覆；Twitter可以站出来，靠的是改变游戏玩法，颠覆。 这是一个压根就不需要“垄断法”的领域，也是“马太效应”天生的坟墓。 在互联网这个领域，真的不应该担心什么“马太效应”，把这份担心拿去关注“创新”一定会更有益处。
3、某商场
柜台，免费；商场门口有个问答中心(搜索)，根据顾客的提出需求给他建议该去的店铺，免费；商场里还有很多各式各样拉客的广告位，收费。 实质是一个“工具平台+营销平台”。
未曾想，免费用着摊位的人天天骂着：“你们以前广告位拉来一个人收一钱银子，去年拉一个人一钱半，现在太贵了，二钱”。天啦，也不好好看看，别的地方现在拉一个人一两银子呢（线下广告更贵）。又没逼你非得找我拉人，商场是开放的，柜台是免费的，有本事你自己去外面拉人啊，你拉来人商场还贴钱给你呢。
活像一堆天天等着救济游手好闲的氓流，突然一天，施主给少了，氓流们不愿意了，骂施舍的人没良心，没道德。实在可笑，实在剽悍。
更可笑的是：原来商场门口那个免费问答中心给顾客的建议原则是：谁家生意做的多信誉好，给谁引导去的人越多。 但顾客一直说生活做的多不一定好，人品(服务)更重要。于是商场变了一下问答中心的建议原则，变成谁的人品(服务)好，多给谁引导点。
嘿，这么一变，突然冒出来一小綽人不愿意了，高喊“你们损害了我的利益，你们不让我活了，就知道赚钱”，纠结起来要去砸了商场，还有一堆不知来路的人后面摇旗呐喊着，好不热闹。天啦，你们这不是等于承认自己人品不行吗。担心自己的人品比不过别人？～
.
这就是我们的互联网，产品人的耳朵里被“同事用户”、“同行用户”、“极端用户”的杂音充斥着。一不留神你就得为0.1%的麻烦用户，而花掉99.9%的时间，最后失去了99.9%的用户。 作为一个产品人，要坚守用户价值，除了不为一些荒谬的KPI而动，还得不为杂音而扰。
我一直坚信，“用户声音”要听，但更重要的是看。产品人员需要有自己的工具，可以通过数据和现象看到“客户的声音”。因为哪些占了99.9%份额的“沉默用户”虽然从来不说自己的意见，但他们一直在做，你可以清清楚楚的看到。把更多精力花在他们身上更值得。
任重而道远啊。
分类：UCD ,10/09/29 6:55 下午 | 191,895 次浏览 |
犀利，直白，透彻
产品搜索规则的更改，注定是一部分人高兴，一部分人不高兴；但其实这都不重要，重要的是用户高兴
我的观点一直在变更，但是目前，我是很支持鸦总的这观点的。希望我不要再成为那个0.1%。
3、某商场
这个没猜错的话，说的应该是淘宝。
严重同意鸦关于用户价值的评述，我比较关注通过什么工具，怎么通过数据和现象看到“客户的声音”。
在”用户声音”中成长的产品人又有几个？
很赞同的啦。
只不过，很多时候连用户价值都忘了，于是做着收集并满足同事、同行、极端用户的事。
唉，我忧的是这个。
产品人员有时候确实需要一定程度的闭门
百度一直在“公正”和“政 府”之间进行博弈
很真实！
做产品很多时候的需求在PK和部门的协调中被丢失，很容易边缘化！
“一不留神你就得为0.1%的麻烦用户，而花掉99.9%的时间，最后失去了99.9%的用户。”
这句话说得好，不过我在想。如何定义这个0.1%的“麻烦”用户是一个比较麻烦的问题。或者换一种说法就是，什么是“麻烦”？为什么有这样的“麻烦”？我们是如何得知有这“0.1%”的麻烦用户存在的？这样的“麻烦”是用户造成的，还是我们造成的？事实上，一切因我而起的问题，想解决的时候也应该由我出发。当然，这种由我出发的角度必须是良性的，否则势必是视为为自身开脱。
关键性的问题不是时间，而是如何定义这个量。对于“麻烦”，我更喜欢比较“肤浅”的理解为用户的一种诉求，一种内心声音的急切表达。我不说99.9%的用户都有这种诉求，但有这种诉求的用户肯定不只0.1%，关键还是定量的问题。
事实上我不赞成楼主将Apple和百度放在本文的例子里边，因为一个是完整的，一个是畸形的。
最近也被如何识别真用户的问题困扰，数据很难提供支持，只能靠产品人员的积累，判断，还要想尽一切手段去说服，任重道远啊
[…] 在杂音中成长的产品人：拿用户讲出来“声音”来说。“同事用户”、“同行用户”、“极端用户”、“活跃用户”的确很重要，但由于这些人都是特殊用户，他们反馈出来的声音必须进行充分的“清洗”后才能采纳。产品人员更应该做的是去找到更多“沉默用户”的声音，因为他们才是你的绝大多数。 […]
哎，不怕“同行用户”和“极端用户”，这作为产品人来说能守得住也明白自己该去面对谁。如今作为一个公司最怕“同事用户”，大家都“热心”得很，不理睬被骂、理睬了就变成自娱自乐做产品了。
amizhang提到的【大家都“热心”得很】，和我遇到的好像啊。
似乎不理睬就成了不合作了。
好文，收藏至20ju.com
@小旺
如何定义0.1%.综合产品人的经验和自身的产品来定义.假如你是博客服务提供商.你对你的产品有一个定位,该产品提供什么样的服务,如果这个清晰了,那么这0.1%可能就是.”我希望你们提供搜索服务,会更方便我使用”.你是视频平台.目的是提供视频存放点以及播放分享服务.”我希望在你们平台一边玩游戏一边看视频”.
举个例子.某策划通过用户的反馈提出需求.
“我希望在这一个页面把所有东西搞定,这样用户就不用东找西找了(潜在的用户需求,出发点是好的).这里加个按钮,那里加个按钮,对,这再加个提示.这搞个弹出.给XX产品提供个入口.这个是客户的广告得加上…等等等等”
我觉得大多数折腾来折腾去的,本身是对产品定位和产品发展方向的不确定.
符合逻辑的产品流程才是及格的产品.一味的满足这些需求会让你的产品人不人鬼不鬼.
换句话说,用户不仅需要你提供良好的服务,还需要你的引导和培养.反馈也好,脑暴也罢,根据自身情况从这里边找出自己的平衡点应该不是难事.如果不行,我倒觉得真不适合做产品.
有门,有窗户,你就觉得从窗户出去更高效.因为用户说,窗户离我近,我翻的还快.你把这一圈墙都给我弄成窗户的吧.门呢,流程呢,逻辑呢,都在哪.
国内大多产品做的烂,一点不怪用户
淘宝小卖家…淡定的飘过…鸦总有理…淘宝有理…
产品人员需要有自己的工具，可以通过数据和现象看到“客户的声音”
——————————————————————-
请问白鸦大哥，这些工具具体是哪些呢，谢谢
@Rock，顶！
留下个脚印
大部分只做不说的用户需求是最难把握，特别是用户深层次的需求。
apple操作模式创新，平台模式创新，是在无数次分析、演算出来的，而不是乔布斯一拍脑袋就出来的。中国式用户需求调研要么找几个人调查一下，要么就是老板用户了。
路漫漫其修远兮~
我也对这些工具比较感兴趣。
我更相信，这么想的产品人不是少数，只是都是“沉默的大多数”。
说的太多，太隐晦，没必要，产品就是要做自己的产品，我自己会找到用户！
@Rock，我赞成你的观点，不过如果我是博客服务提供商，我不会把
【“我希望你们提供搜索服务,会更方便我使用”.你是视频平台.目的是提供视频存放点以及播放分享服务.”我希望在你们平台一边玩游戏一边看视频”.】当成0.1%，因为真正0.1%的用户可能是这样的：“我发帖不成功咋回事呀（你有大堆敏感词怪谁？）”，“图片转载不成功怎么办（未经原作者同意）”，“头像更改成功，但还是老图片（系统问题）”，“上传照片不成功。。（系统问题）”，这样的0.1%，随便去找找看，结果集绝对不在少数，多收集成千上万然后抓堆分析，不能看出自己的问题？
不过这些大概不是博主文中谈及的“杂音”，事实上我觉得把“杂音”理解为“诉求”可能更为合适，“诉”指的是产品没有满足用户期望值，这时候用户可能会通过多种途径表达自己的看法、甚至是批评指责。“求”指的就是Rock说的第一段了，“求”的这部分一定不是极端用户，也不止0.1%，如何定量？如何剥离？确实是一门技术。可能就需要楼主所说的工具了，也可能是Rock谈及的产品人的经验和自身的产品。
讨论已经偏离了主题，在这里评论的也绝对不会是任何一款互联网产品那沉默的“99.9%”。
第一次听说“产品人” 呵呵
@azero 同样听到过有同事“热心”提建议。这种建议杀伤力太大了。
沉默用户的声音最难挖掘，但力量最大。不过也可掘地三尺找很多渠道，就看产品人重视不重视了。
我们的同胞们被“马太”怕了。
有定力把功能做到极简不怕挨骂的人是极少的，如果你同事过来说一声这么这个功能都没有，你就开始怀疑自己的产品功能了。
企业都是在骂声中成长滴，能做到游戏规则制定者你才有上面说话滴底气。
TB显然要成为那个，继企鹅、摆渡之后，另外一行业游戏规则滴制定者
鄙视百度的引导 鄙视百度的引导 鄙视百度的引导
分析得好
做一个产品人也不错，虽然我是网络营销人，不过我们的目的都是统一的：为用户提供有价值的产品或者服务。
[…] 【来源】白鸦 – 在杂音中成长的产品人 【整理】horan@数据力量 – 产品成长于杂音中 【相关】IT产品经理随想 […]
说这么多举这么多例子有什么用？发现这些人只会讲这些概念性的东西，能讲点实在的，比如如何观察沉默用户的需求？
用户声音很重要，一直在努力中………………
用户声音往往关系着商业价值，不得不重视！！
送给PM三句话，以备所需：
1.现在很忙，月底再说好吗。
2.这个事情，你（您：这个字你可以用在老大身上）先找一下市场部；
3.做不了。
说完以上三句话以后，产品经理做好卷铺盖走人的准备。
赞同楼主的思路，不过要做好分利工作，给那些真正能提供优质内容的网站分利。
关键问题在于，产品主责人的判断和决断力。换言之，脊梁骨是否坚定啦……首先他要有“远见卓识”可以看到产品对用户的真正价值，换言之，对产品后续的需求和推广有比较明晰的IDEA。其次，还得有判断力，知道哪些属于0.1%，那些不属于……更重要的是可以遴选极少的可以影响产品改进方向的有价值的意见，也许现在看起来的是荒谬的，但是更加promising。第三，还得坚定自己的看法，固执或是执着都无所谓的，客户“爹妈”和老板“娘舅”之间的关系要处理得当啊……第四，做到这些，事必躬亲会很辛苦，所以还要缔造团队给自己减轻压力……
其实核心一点，就是在不影响“爹妈”体验的情况下满足娘舅的需求。百度做的其实有问题啦……例如我很少用百度，原因很简单，每次搜索出来的东西都不是我最需要的，但是也很难说不是我需要的，总之都会有一点差距。这就是牺牲了爹妈满足娘舅。goole呢，依然会搜索出百度知道中有用的东西，每次搜索出来的还是我想要的，不同的搜索分类区分也很明确，例如我要学术的东西直接去学术搜索这个产品，感觉很好……
不做产品，只听音乐。
关键问题在于，产品主责人的判断和决断力.
执行力！
为什么白鸦在这篇文章里面说到百度框计算的时候会认为“只要没有损害用户的价值，让该骂的人骂去吧”，但是在另外一篇文章里面却大骂360呢？360同样没有损害用户的价值啊？为什么360就被骂成一条狗了呢？博主的对这类时间的价值观标准是什么？！
[…] 最后，我最近有2个领悟：其一，如果在新产品上线或者产品改版时候有用户持续的（注意频率）唱衰之并扬言要离开，那这些用户是最不会离开的，具体请 参见豆瓣；其二，如果一个新产品上线或者产品改版后没有人骂，那你这产品着实太烂了或者着实太籍籍无名了。不过，对于产品人员而言，学会挨骂是个必须过关 的技能！具体参见白鸦的“在杂音中成长的产品人”。 […]
看国产动作电影新龙门客栈
非常赞同白鸦的观点，但如何才能获得更多沉默用户的声音，即然选择了沉默该如何发声？请教白鸦
好文章!
好文章!
这是个斗争的世界,没有博弈的资本就只能任人宰割.
如果你的收入完全来自流量,而流量又取决于另一个公司,你注定只能接受.
所以,发出杂音可以做为一个手段,但是有效的只能是自己掌握自己的命运.
作为一个产品人，要坚守用户价值，除了不为一些荒谬的KPI而动，还得不为杂音而扰。
站内搜索怎么了？ 只要给的东西是用户想要的，SO TM WHAT ? 流量黑洞怎么了？只要给用户提供了他们更需要的结果，SO TM WHAT? 只要没有损害用户的价值，让该骂的人骂去吧。
问题是它给的经常不是我想要的
中国人是聪明的，不管规则如何变，该刷信誉，刷商品依旧盛行，改了规则还催生了另外一些人的生存。
不同意，你说百度，这个，它公正么？
我和我的朋友去了一家医院，这里可以说公认是无法治愈这种病的；很多人都是第一次来，觉得无效都走了；我们就在百度贴出这条消息，希望那些没有很多钱，有很渴望治好病的人不要浪费时间；而百度却把这贴删了；只要搜索这病，百度里前几名就有这家医院。
它公正么？怎么算公正？
白鸦，如果你懂“劣币驱除良币”的原理，你就会对百度的搜索广告和淘宝的广告位有了更深入的认识
李彦宏就是一团狗屎。丢中国人的脸。别忘了，百度也是一个外企。
你说站内搜索怎么了，这种明知故问的感觉只能满足自己内心的答案。看看贴吧知道，好处不可否认，但一堆乱七八糟的答案也排在最前面了，那可能是你认为大家需要的，但至少很多不是我需要的
43楼，因为这次的广州书友会有腾讯的小牛来啊，你总不能隔膜肘往外拐吧，中国人不都是这样需要客套一下，你就看下就行了。不过小白说的也挺对的，360确实这一招很让腾讯生气，不过腾讯也干过不少事情，只要你稍微注意下就知道。只不过不管是周公放火还是百姓点灯只是某一部分人看着不爽，但还是有人会很爽的，所以有人批评有人闭嘴，都正常。互联网和其他事情没什么区别，你不搞我，我不能我搞你了呀
很不好意思，我来这里不是讨论关于行业的话题
我来这里，首先是“开骂”的。
主题是关于alipay手机业务的。
今天我手机收了条短信：支付宝提醒你，好久没登陆了，你可以用支付宝来支付水电费之类等等(不是原话，但就这个意思)
OK，我是开了支付宝的手机了，我也是搞互联网的，我也知道所谓的许可性email营销。
但他奶奶的白鸦你就不知道什么叫许可性？许可性email营销，还有个不喜欢可以退订/不打扰呢。
你这支付宝做大了，就发这种垃圾短信，我还得花10秒去删？
病毒性营销/口碑营销不是这么做的啊！
你要真想做好？退订呢？！！
你做用户体验的，还让我在这里给你说这个？你好意思？
知道结果么？
我登了支付宝，找了手机相关设置，压根就没有。——导致我直接解绑了所有手机的操作应用！
我不用手机搞支付宝行不？
这个你想不到吧？
至于为什么发在这里，你可以看看这篇文章的标题。
@索林那瑞 不好意思，我也是昨天才知道这个短信的。 这个短信确实做的有问题，通知的时候末经用户设置，且不可取消。 已经跟相关产品设计师反馈了，相信他们会很快改进。
给你带来骚扰，非常抱歉！
OK，作为alipay的普通用户，我接受白鸦大大的道歉。
那作为行业从业人员之一
继续探讨一下我个人认为这个问题出现的一个折射点——alipay的产品战略设定有偏差。
alipay的产品战略核心竞争力在于——1、信用桥梁，2、领先的支付方式。2个关键点，信用为先，桥梁为后。
现在一支全支的这种战略想法，无可厚非。
但有1点——alipay没有事实垄断，在中国IM的事实垄断是QQ，在支付方面呢？是各大银行。而非alipay。在这点上，alipay绝对无法赶超银行。我很肯定这点，因为没有alipay在我家附近的银行。
从paypal的战略发展思路来看，是放在了第2点，领先的支付方式来渗透每个人的生活中，使得生活支付渠道带来更加便捷，具体请自行搜索paypal的广告。因为国外的1、安全；2、信用支付都很健全了。
回眼到国内，我不谈大的道理，我愿意网上支付电话费，但通常我用网银来支付。因为网银支付和alipay支付没有不同，但我要用alipay支付电话费，还需要从网银转款。我在转款之前，就可以网银支付电话，干嘛还要花时间用alipay去支付？
alipay犯了国内最大的毛病，爱做大做全，我建议不要做加法，要做减法。
@索林那瑞 其实我们没有什么宏大的战略，只不过是叭叭的看着我们的典型用户 为他们提供我们可以提供的价值。 至于什么竞争，真的没有精力考虑太多。 几个亿的注册用户，服务好他们相信支付宝就有未来了，服务不好，怎样布局都不会有未来。
完全赞同你说的，不要做加法，要做减法。谢谢
关于马太效应：互联网作为一个创新的快速变化的领域，他没有游戏规则，最重要的特征就是“颠覆”。后者可以靠改变游戏规则来颠覆前者，不管前者有多么庞大。Google超越了Yahoo！靠的是改变游戏规则，颠覆；Facebook可以挑战Google靠的是改变游戏规则，颠覆；Twitter可以站出来，靠的是改变游戏玩法，颠覆。 这是一个压根就不需要“垄断法”的领域，也是“马太效应”天生的坟墓。 在互联网这个领域，真的不应该担心什么“马太效应”，把这份担心拿去关注“创新”一定会更有益处。
关于马太效应：互联网作为一个创新的快速变化的领域，他没有“游戏规则”
Google超越了Yahoo！靠的是改变”游戏规则“
我来学习了。
这就是我们的互联网，产品人的耳朵里被“同事用户”、“同行用户”、“极端用户”的杂音充斥着。一不留神你就得为0.1%的麻烦用户，而花掉99.9%的时间，最后失去了99.9%的用户。 作为一个产品人，要坚守用户价值，除了不为一些荒谬的KPI而动，还得不为杂音而扰。
————————
这个这个，太有感触了。现实就是这样的。所以，花时间和精力、同时运用高超的研究技术去关注99%的用户，是一件多么重要的事。大家一定要在这方面共勉。
来学习了。 百度也是一个外企 ?
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